Cool Solutions

ZENworks, NetWare, platform support and the future

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August 14, 2007 2:07 pm

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This post took a long time to put together – hopefully it answers a lot of questions raised on Cool Blogs. I especially want to clear up the misconceptions about ZENworks 10 Configuration Management – and some incorrect assumptions about being tied to a Windows server infrastructure.

Written at: San Francisco, CA and Draper, UT

To start we need to re-read the blog post from Jason Williams from June 2006 – in it he explains much of the rational for the drive to Open Enterprise Server 2 and the shift of services across from the NetWare kernel to the Linux kernel.

And here is the real crux of the matter; Novell has two choices in front of it:

1) Continue developing the NetWare operating system

2) Bring the services over to a new platform for the future

It is not as if Novell suddently woke up one morning and decided to port all of its services to Linux and buy Ximian and SuSE. The decision making process was long and drawn out and a good deal of customer feedback went into the decisions. And so we find ourselves in the here and now.

To this end the ZENworks team have worked closely with the Workgroup team at Novell in many ways.

First – to make sure that we both co-operate and our products work well with each other

  • ZENworks 7 runs on both NetWare 6.5 and SLES 10.  We have lots of examples of customers choosing the deploy ZENworks on a mixed environment of NetWare, OES and SLES together.
  • ZENworks 10 Configuration Management runs on SLES 10 and the forthcoming Open Enterprise Server 2.

Second – we have also tied our support lifecycles together where it makes sense.

Third – we jointly came up with some creative product bundling

  • Take a look at the Novell Open Workgroup Suite. http://www.novell.com/products/openworkgroupsuite/
  • NOWS includes ZENworks 7 suite – which runs on NetWare 6.5 and SLES 10
  • NOWS also includes an entitlement to ZENworks 10 Configuration Management which runs on SLES 10

I hope these help emphasise our strong commitment to customers who have purchased and deployed ZENworks in a NetWare environment.

Let me repeat again: we support you with ZENworks 7 during the life of your NetWare infrastructure. We welcome you with the newest additions to the ZENworks product family as you move across to Open Enterprise Server 2 and SLES 10.

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Disclaimer: This content is not supported by Novell. It was contributed by a community member and is published "as is." It seems to have worked for at least one person, and might work for you. But please be sure to test it thoroughly before using it in a production environment.

53 Comments

  1. Fourth – ZENworks Orchestrator, VM Builder and VM Warehouse, support Open Enterprise Server 2 Workgroup Services when deployed/running as Xen-based VMs, including paravirtualized NetWare.

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  2. By:D Lee

    Long term >1000 Zen customer

    http://www.novell.com/products/zenworks/endpointsecuritymanagement/senforce.html

    GREAT more products that are “bolt on’s” to Zen that you have to pay extra for

    Once you have added on patch, asset, end point, wireless USB and the
    original licence plus maintenance on all Zen is now VERY expensive.

    When are we going to get some extra long needed functionality included in
    the suite maintenance cost?

    (sigh)

    Anyway

    Can you clear this up for me before I go mad at nothing.

    We have just renewed our maintenance on ZFD7 Suite.

    ZCM10 has just been released.

    In ZFD 7 Suite (http://www.novell.com/products/zenworks/compare.html) you
    get :-

    - Desktop Management
    - Handheld Management
    - Server Management
    - Linux Management

    After checking the upgrade link on the ZCM 10 website http://www.novell.com/products/zenworks/configurationmanagement/howtobuy.html

    If you have maintenance on ZFD7 suite you are ONLY entitled to the standard edition….. which upon checking on the Compare link http://www.novell.com/products/zenworks/configurationmanagement/compare.html
    gives you :-

    Configuration Management

    But more importantly …. You do not get

    USB/Wireless Security
    Patch Management Services
    Asset Management Services
    Endpoint Security Management
    Handheld Management
    Linux Management

    From what I can read if you upgrade from 7 to ZCM 10 you loose products!!!!

    Novell appear to ripping off long term maintenance customers…. I hope I am wrong

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  3. The first thing to note – is that ZENworks Configuration Management is a new product in the ZENworks family; not a replacement for ZENworks 7 Suite. There is an entitlement to both ZENworks Desktop Management customers and for those with the Suite – but it’s not intended to be a suite replacement.

    You have ZENworks 7 Suite with maintenance or upgrade protection; you can still use all of the components in the suite – as well as ZCM.

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  4. By:eric

    Actualy reading the coment from DLee above I was thinking.

    I have a ‘zen shop’ with novell and I am thinking nearly the same. But the reply from novell is interesting to me.

    can I use my zen 7 with zcm10?

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  5. By:D Lee

    Ahhh… “A new product”… I cant help but feel this smacks of a way to take fresh blood from long term loyal customers. I also feel your answer lacks explanation. If someone is on a two year maintenance agreement are you going to release new versions of the suite then? So far we have received very little of use (unless you use Linux) in the most recent Zen releases. If you factor in the problems around imaging etc I am surprised you do not have disgruntled customers.

    Surely long term loyal customers should be entitled to move to ZCM10 and have the ability to use products that been previously bundled in the suite. In my opinion “suite” customers should be given much than you are currently offering. It hard enough to justify Zen against other products now as when you add up all the bits (that are usually bundled into other products) it comes out very expensive.

    This is one very upset and digruntled customer considering all options.

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  6. “Surely long term loyal customers should be entitled to move to ZCM10 and have the ability to use products that been previously bundled in the suite.”

    You can do that today.

    As for futures – we plan to release updated versions of ZENworks Configuration Management that //do// replace the suite.

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  7. By:Mickeyu

    Why didn’t you include the service pack information for SLES on any of your text here?

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  8. SLES 10 and SLES 10 SP1 are supported; including both x86 and x86_64 platforms.

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  9. By:Mickeyu

    Cool

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  10. By:AnotherEric

    Does ZCM include SLES10 entitlement similar to how Groupwise now does?

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  11. AnotherEric

    Unfortunately not – it’s a great idea – and something we are considering.

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  12. By:fanta

    I think from what you saying that there is no more support inside zen for netware. It will be only the Linux or the Windows servers.

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  13. Fanta

    You are correct. Short and to the point – new development for ZENworks will only be for Linux and Windows server infrastructures. We will manage a mixed environment of clients – Windows, Linux and NetWare – but only ZENworks 7 will run on NetWare.

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  14. By:Eric

    We must then wait for the mystery that is the release-date of OES2 :-(
    Please give it your utmost considerance until then!

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  15. By:Patrick Farrell

    Martin,

    That’s a very poor justification, on the surface. That’s like Microsoft saying you own Office 2000 pro, but we’re going to give you Office 2003 small business without PowerPoint because 2003 is now the “Office System” with Microsoft Office word instead of Microsoft Word. Although it does just about the same things and looks a little different, you don’t qualify because it’s a the new Office system whereas before you just had Office.. So go ahead and run Word and Excel 2003 and just use PowerPoint 2000.

    I disagree with the D Lee on a few things in that you do NOT get assess management or Patch management in the Zen suite. Patch management is an eval requiring subscription. You get Asset inventory, but not management. You also do not get endpoint security management or wireless security without paying extra in the Zen 7 suite.

    Apples to Apples, it looks like Handheld and Linux management are the only things being left out.

    Novell has become more and more expensive across their line. This would be justifiable if it was a vastly superior product, but it’s not. It’s rapidly becoming the “it’s cheaper to upgrade to the less functional than the other guys system than to rip and replace with the other guys” product. That’s an across the board thing not just Zen. That’s NOT what you want to be known for. We’re constantly nailed by both management and users for not being a Microsoft shop and Novell seems to want to make this harder and harder to justify with every product release. The irony is, I had just got done making this point in one of the forums, and I came here to write about it only to find someone else had beaten me to it.

    “You have ZENworks 7 Suite with maintenance or upgrade protection; you can still use all of the components in the suite”

    True, you can. People are going to need to move to ZCM however for Vista Support. I’m pretty sure that’s why a lot of people who recently purchased protection did so. That would mean to keep the functionality you had, you would have to run a mix of 7 and 10. I haven’t seen how it all integrates in 10, but as it stands now that means you’d have multiple management tools and interfaces to deal with… (like C1/iManager.. don’t get me started)

    That just doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense. It’s not that you have discontinued the products (linux/handheld), you’re just not bundling them with the upgraded suite at that level. Is Novell expecting so much revenue from people that want to use a Novell product to manage a handheld or a linux box that they think it’s worth the hassle of bundling this way? Maybe there are huge numbers of customers using these two products, which means irritating huge numbers of customers. You could argue that it’s not a lot of units being managed at any given customer site, in which case it’s not a lot of revenue to generate either.

    Novell really needs to look at moving those two items over to the standard suite and above level. It’s going to create a lot of heartburn for existing customers and it won’t win any word of mouth recommendations to potential new ones. It doesn’t even matter if existing customers are currently using it or not. What they see is that you upgraded them, took something away and then want to charge them to get it back. That’s not the way to win over customers.

    I know you guys put in a tremendous amount of work into the new Zen and I don’t mean in any way to diminish that or the product itself. Unfortunately what I see is what I think we’ve all seen for the last decade. Management and Marketing executing a good product through poor execution of a strategy. Novell users are passionate about their stuff and we get frustrated when we see the same company slip ups made year after year.

    Thanks for your time.

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  16. Patrick

    I think I’ll have to put some graphics together on this one too.

    If you already have the suite – think of the ZCM entitlement as an alternative for the ZENworks Desktop Management pieces. The ZLM and ZHM pieces in the Enterprise Edition of ZCM are the same as in the ZENworks Suite.

    I don’t know how to make this any clearer:

    - if you have the suite – we’re adding to your suite upgrade protection/maintenance by adding the ability to use ZCM.
    - We are not replacing the suite with these editions of ZCM
    - if you have the suite you can continue to use ZLM, ZHM and all of the other suite components; as well as ZCM

    It’s additive – not subtractive here. You’re actually getting //more// for your maintenance/upgrade protection.

    One thing that I will keep repeating – don’t think of ZCM as a replacement for either ZENworks Desktop Management or ZENworks suite. It’s an addition to our product line. Over time we //will// move all of the other pieces – ZHM, ZLM, ZESM – into the same architecture; at that point we may decide to replace the suite with something based on the ZCM architecture and with equivalent functionality. Today we’re just adding the desktop management functions.

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    • By:ecyoung

      As Mr. Buckley has not been with Novell for quite some time now, is it still in Novell’s plans to move ZHM, ZLM, ZESM into ZCM? Or have things totally changed since then? Perhaps there is an updated Zenworks roadmap that Novell could share, considering there hasn’t been a Brainshare for so long (which is where I usually obtain new Novell product roadmaps).

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  17. By:Patrick Farrell

    Martin,

    First thank you for a speedy reply. Not sure what time zone you are in but it’s after hours in mine. Perhaps it’s the way it’s written up on Novell.com. I wanted to check the tech specs again but unfortunately as of right now

    http://www.novell.com/products/zenworks/configurationmanagement/tech_specs.html

    is a broken link. When you look at what it does on places I’ve looked on Novell’s site, it looks like it replaces. I see things like policy deployed patches and applications, remote control etc. It sounds like it does what 7 does and more. Unfortunately I was not able to attend the Brainshare seminars on it as it conflicted with other classes I had and I was in the process of rolling Zen 7 at the time and was focused on that.

    I’ve heard the “it’s not a replacement” before as well, but that runs counter to what you see on the site.

    http://www.novell.com/products/zenworks/configurationmanagement/accelerate.html
    ———–
    Upgrade with Confidence

    If you are upgrading from a previous version of ZENworks Desktop Management, ZENworks Configuration Management allows you to roll out without impacting your existing system. As you introduce Windows, Open Enterprise Server 2 or SUSE Linux Enterprise Server to your infrastructure, ZENworks will continue to deliver configuration management from any of these systems.

    And don’t worry about impacting your existing ZENworks system. ZENworks Configuration Management runs side by side with previous versions of ZENworks.

    Migrate at your own pace—as quickly or controlled as you deem necessary. Model and test your configurations until you are comfortable, then migrate applications and policies on your own schedule with full rollback capabilities. During migration, all your previous work is preserved—applications, policies, associations and more.
    ————-

    When you ask how you can make it any clearer.. I’d start there. Because that screams it’s an upgrade to a new version. Just like you can run a mix of 6.5 and 7.x stuff. You can have a 7.0 server and 6.5 agents and migrate the agents at your own time frame. When you have a sentence saying you can migrate your stuff to this version, that means replace.

    “The ZLM and ZHM pieces in the Enterprise Edition of ZCM are the same as in the ZENworks Suite.”

    That right there I think will fix a lot of the confusion. You aren’t missing out on anything if you have ZDM7 and migrate to ZCM because those components are the same and you just retain what you have. Basically that will answer that big gripe right there.

    I remember at Brainshare it being said ZCM wasn’t the replacement, I think I heard corona thrown around a bit as what’s coming next, or was that the code name for ZCM? Perhaps you can shed some light there?

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  18. Patrick

    Thanks for the feedback – I’ll make sure the marketing side of the house clean up the web messaging.

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  19. By:Roger

    The one thing people have not picked up on yet is the fact that many customers are now going to be charge more than once for maintenance. I have the ZENworks Suite as part of the Workgroup Suite and I have Asset Management 7.5 both under maintenance. To move to ZENworks Configuration Management this means I have to take the Enterprice edition and while I can drop paying for maintenance of Asset Management 7.5 I will still be paying for maintenance of the ZENworks Suite 7.0 as part of the Workgroup Suite.

    The discount structure to purchase the Enterprise version also provides no justification for having paid maintenance in the past as the maintenance I have paid for Zenworks and Asset Management 7.5 results in no savings on the upgrade. This is going to look great when I again try and renew my Novell maintenance contracts as it will be pointed out that the payments seem rather pointless.

    Another issue is that Novell have not yet posted the maintenance costs of ZENworks Configuration Management on the web site, just the purchase costs.

    Roger

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  20. By:Lisa Diaz

    Martin, when will Novell post an obituary for Netware and get it out in the open and over with?

    OES2 is supposed to have Netware support, but upcoming Novell products will not run on Netware any longer.

    You need to publicly cut the cord and let everyone know so there is no further confusion and there can be better informed budget planners.

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  21. Roger

    This looks incorrect.

    If you have maintenance/upgrade protection on the Novell Open Workgroup Suite (NOWS) then you will be entitled to the standard edition of ZCM.

    Your licensing and maintenance remain the same.

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  22. By:Roger

    Yes but as I noted I will need to upgrade to Enterprise version of ZCM, so I end up paying two maintenance/upgrade protection fees. One for ZCM (standard) as part of NOWS and one for ZCM (Enterprise).

    Roger

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  23. By:Mickey

    Here it is- I think Jack Messyman said it first when they bought out SUSE

    We’re not dropping Netware we’re adding linux”

    What he meant to say was

    We’re not dropping NetWare, we’re just droping support for our other products on NetWare, and addding LINUX.

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  24. “Mickey”

    If you read my other comments you’ll understand that we continue to fully support NetWare with ZENworks 7.

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  25. By:eric

    Yes – I do see this clearly now. The “half-truth” of Messman and the lack of direct confirming statements from Novell.

    NetWare may be supported “for ever” – but you will not see any new development, enhancement, new feature, new product, additional support, new hardware “for ever”.

    Maybe Mr Evil Zen Scientist isn’t saying. Maybe he not the man to say. But someone from Novell should step up and tell us what is the truth.

    Maybe Mr Jason Wiliams?

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  26. By:Ron van Herk

    In the post Martin referred to, Jason did his best to explain what happens, maybe it would be good to read that old blog post.


    Linux is Novells strategic platform for the future, and I have to ensure that every hour of engineering I have at my disposal is spent on doing two things:
    a) Moving the services that customers use to Linux and ensuring that they work as well or better than on NetWare
    b) Writing enhanced or new services that service customer needs

    And as Jason explained in his post “NetWare support until when?” the next version Open Enterprise Server (OES2) will allow you to run NetWare virtualized within XEN, allowing you to make a smooth transition to “Novells strategic platform for the future”. In such an environment it will be very well possible to run ZCM and NetWare next to each other on the same machine, ZCM will just not be running on top of NetWare but will need to run on the Linux host or within a second virtual server running SLES.

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  27. By:Lisa Diaz

    Installing an OS so you can install a Virtual Environment so you can install a NOS isn’t exactly what I call “supporting” a product that should be able to be installed all by its’ lonesome on a server.

    If Novell is “truly” supporting Netware, then why won’t Novell allow for currently-developed applications run on it?

    Why doesn’t Novell simply just say, “Netware is over” and have it done with?

    Seriously – how many Netware shops do you think there are that will buy Linux so that they can run Netware?

    Why does Novell speak cryptically when it comes to Netware? Why not get a backbone and just say it plainly?

    Stuff like this are infuriating.

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  28. Lisa

    I can’t speak for the workgroup team, third party developers or the broader Novell – but for ZENworks I did answer pretty clearly I thought:

    this comment

    Fanta

    You are correct. Short and to the point – new development for ZENworks will only be for Linux and Windows server infrastructures. We will manage a mixed environment of clients – Windows, Linux and NetWare – but only ZENworks 7 will run on NetWare.

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  29. By:Lisa Diaz

    That is the straightest talk from anyone I’ve heard from Novell yet.

    It’s plain that you do not see any further development for ZENworks on the Netware platform at all. Ever again.

    Why can’t other areas be this forthcoming and admit they too, are shoveling dirt in the Netware grave?

    Next question – why can’t Novell get ConsoleOne snapins for LDAP?

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  30. By:Patrick Farrell

    Well lets be serious for a minute. Linux is the future of Novell. We’ve all known that for 2 brainshares. There’s a very high cost in development for Netware vs Linux in terms of finding core people who can do it. I’m still running Netware. My issue with Novell is basically: if you are going to replace a product with another, the other product should be equal or better. I don’t know anybody who moved to OES1 and said wow this is so much better than Netware. It’s not. Sure it’s Linux but it didn’t perform as expected. Hopefully OES2 will rectify this situation. I don’t have a problem with Novell developing new products on the Linux platform. When GW 7 came out, they even gave you a Linux server license to run it on if I recall.

    I think that Novell finds it far easier to develop robust products on Linux as compared to Netware and if the decision was made that the products had to run on both, I don’t think they would be able to deliver some of the newer stuff.

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  31. By:Lisa Diaz

    Patrick,

    The ONLY reason it’s easier for Novell to develop on Linux than Netware is because they fired the lot of Netware developers they had. The shot themselves in the foot and simply refuse to admit it.

    You are right on target when people expect the manufacturer to have a replacement that was *at least* as good as what they were replacing. OES1 basically sucks when compared to either Windows or Netware, and that’s where the biggest problems lie.

    When Novell says BS like, “Macintosh is now on a Unix kernel, and no one complained!”, it makes me want to slap them silly. Macs still look, act, and operate the same as before, so the change was minimal.

    Going from Netware to Linux is considerably different. Had Novell even thought this out for one second, they would have realized that maybe, just maybe, they should have done *something* to the server-side to help ease the Netware transition. Having some tools that look like Netware tools, even Monitor.nlm would have been nice.

    Quite frankly, many our customers went into panic mode when it was discovered that iFolder 3.0 would never work on a Netware server. They knew Novell had abandoned Netware and them. It was a sick feeling. Many of those same customers have since moved on to Windows. They simply will not move to Linux. With Novell’s deal with Microsoft, some moved even quicker, as they were not sure how much longer Novell would survive, given Microsoft’s history with their “partners”.

    I can’t say that I blame them. We sell MS as well as other manufacturer’s software, and will continue to do so. Novell’s executives act like they’ve never had a small business customer ever. The IBM influence is killing them, IMO.

    I could rant forever, but I’d better stop and get ready for work.

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  32. By:Tom Stone

    Wow! Quite a bit has been said on this already but I have some comments and questions.

    I think that Novell needs to reconsider their licensing on Zenworks regarding the entitlement of Zenworks Suite to only ZCM. The whole point of purchasing maintenance on the suite was to ensure no financial surprises when moving forward with the product line. Now, Novell wants to change the name of the product in order to limit the feature set and charge for the things that you should get with maintenance subscriptions.

    If a customer owns the Zenworks 7 Suite that includes ZFD, ZFS, ZFH, etc., then they should get the equivalents in the Zenworks 10 product line. That’s how you behave to maintain integrity with your customer base. If there will no longer be ZFS, or ZFH, or their equivalents, then fine, it just goes away, but it looks like there are equivalent products except for Zen for Servers.

    Is ZFS a dead end? What do we do for Windows server, NetWare server, network traffic monitoring, SNMP management, etc.? That was a big investment of time and effort to get that working.

    I think it should be very clear. If a customer pays for maintenance of a suite of products, then they should get the new versions of all those products. You can’t change the rules whenever you feel like it. If you do that, I guarantee that you will lose customers.

    Does this also mean that customers who had only ZFD7 with maintenance also get the same ZCM product that the suite customers are entitled to or are they just out of luck?

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  33. Tom

    I’ll put a post together specifically on this – but you are getting //extra// for your maintenance in this case not less.

    As I said above:

    - if you have the suite – we’re adding to your suite upgrade protection/maintenance by adding the ability to use ZCM.
    - We are not replacing the suite with these editions of ZCM
    - if you have the suite you can continue to use ZLM, ZHM and all of the other suite components; as well as ZCM

    It’s additive – not subtractive here. You’re actually getting //more// for your maintenance/upgrade protection.

    One thing that I will keep repeating – don’t think of ZCM as a replacement for either ZENworks Desktop Management or ZENworks suite.

    It’s an addition to our product line. Over time we //will// move all of the other pieces – ZHM, ZLM, ZESM – into the same architecture; at that point we may decide to replace the suite with something based on the ZCM architecture and with equivalent functionality. Today we’re just adding the desktop management functions.

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  34. By:Tom Stone

    A correction about my question regarding ZFS. It looks like ZCM does Windows server management but it isn’t clear about the other network and SNMP stuff that was ZFS. Also, I can understand that you want ZCM to run on Linux but why can’t you still manage a NetWare server? That doesn’t sit well with me. OES NetWare will still be around for years to come. After all, you still sell it as a current product.

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  35. By:Tom Stone

    Martin,

    I really appreciate the direct feedback that these blogs provide and thanks for the quick reply.

    Your statement, “One thing that I will keep repeating – don’t think of ZCM as a replacement for either ZENworks Desktop Management or ZENworks suite,” seems to contradict the fact that their isn’t any Vista support coming for ZFD7 or am I wrong about that?

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  36. Tom

    Thanks for your feedback too.

    It seems like we need to do a better job explaining our roadmap and what people get – I’m going to take a stab at that on Cool Blogs today..

    In respect to you other comments:

    - ZCM is not a direct replacement for ZENworks 7 Suite today
    - in the future we expect we will be adding all of the ZENworks functions into the new architecture – Handheld Management, Linux Management, End Point Security etc.
    - ZENworks Server Management is being delivered in multiple places in the new architecture; Tiered Electronic Distribution and the policy management pieces are an integral part of the product for example.
    - We are looking at what we do with the NetWare based SNMP management capabilities of Management and Monitoring Services
    - No support for Vista in ZENworks 7

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  37. By:Tom Stone

    Martin -

    Thanks again. This makes it clearer but I am sure everyone would like to see a comparison chart of the Zen 7 components and what they migrate to on the new product.

    I noticed that there is no ZCM documentation on Novell’s documentation web site. I found an old link to the beta version documentation but nothing for the official release yet.

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  38. By:Ron van Herk

    The ZCM documentation can be found at: http://www.novell.com/documentation/zcm10/index.html

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  39. By:Lisa Diaz

    Martin,

    A comparison chart and a graphical representation would be most helpful. Some people (like me) need to “see” what they are getting.

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  40. By:Patrick Farrell

    “The ONLY reason it’s easier for Novell to develop on Linux than Netware is because they fired the lot of Netware developers they had. The shot themselves in the foot and simply refuse to admit it.”

    Not true. Even if Novell retained all of it’s Netware people, the worldwide base of Linux developers dwarfs the worldwide base of Netware developers. There are far more tools available and considerably more talent, and the Linux OS is considerably more flexible. For example… 64 bit. Novell would have had to rewrite Netware for 64 bit, whereas this was already done with Linux.

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  41. By:Jeff May

    I agree – it is frustrating. Novell doesn’t develop Windows servers, but ZEN manages them just fine.

    Being a Netware customer *used* to be fun and stress-free.

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  42. By:Jeff May

    There have always been more Linux / Windows developers than Netware. Why didn’t Novell just fold tent on Netware years ago? There was always great third-party support for Netware to do what you needed – backup, messaging,web server, user management, etc.

    About the only thing Linux brings to the table with regards to development is on the desktop, and you can find hundreds of Linux desktop developers who will do it just for the recognition.

    So this to me is a load of crap. Not having pretty 3d graphics on the server isn’t a reason to dump a perfectly good NOS that outclassed every competitor.

    You have to admit that firing the developers for the very NOS you claim has no development support is contradictory and screams of hypocracy.

    Look at what is keeping Linux from exploding, and you’ll see more desktop constraints than server – Quicken, Peachtree, Photoshop, etc. On the server side, it’s more mundane – backup/restore, how to do what you did on Netware to work on Linux, file rights, etc.

    Even IF Novell pulls its’ head out and finally delivers on getting ONE place to manage all Novell components – ZEN, LDAP, BM, GW, etc – there are still hurdles to overcome that Novell refuses to even acknowledge.

    Here we have Windows, Netware, and RedHat with eDirectory on all of them. We have no interest in moving to SUSE. We don’t want Microsoft suing us after their “agreement” expires, so why bother putting in that infrastructure to begin with? We’ll just have to yank it out later.

    We’re not as fumed with Novell for requiring an MS server for ZEN as some, but we are a bit confused. But that’s for another discussion.

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  43. By:Jeffrey Sessler

    If ZCM was truly an “addition” to the existing Zen Suite, then I’d have expected Vista support within the older product. Since Vista support is only by means of the ZCM product, that’s telling me and the other Novell customers that the Zen Suite is dead (new feature wise). If Zen Suite included Vista, then I could better agree that ZCM is in addition to, and not replacing, Zen Suite. Since Novell is forcing customers, who want Vista support, to deploy ZCM, there is something more going on here.

    My take is that ZCM was planned as the replacement, but it fell behind and features had to be cut. If the ZCM shipping today was more feature complete, I’ll bet the message would be Zen Suite is dead, upgrade to ZCM.

    That said, to have paid for the Zen Suite for so long, and then only get ZCM standard is shameful. I can see a customer with Zen f/ Desktops only getting Standard, but Novell should have offered the Zen Suite customers the Enterprise version.

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  44. By:Ron van Herk

    ZCM has a large part of what used to be ZENworks Desktop Management and also replaces some of what ZENworks Server Management does. It’s not a one-to-one replacement and as such it’s looked at as a new product. As Martin Buckley mentioned “we plan to release updated versions of ZENworks Configuration Management that //do// replace the suite.”

    If you look at the three editions that are available at the moment, you’ll see that the Standard edition is the base product and that the advanced and enterprise contain thing’s like Patch Management, Endpoint Security and Asset Management, these where all add-on components with ZENworks 7 and as such it’s no surprise that you do not get these through the maintenance you have on the ZENworks Suite (the ZLM and ZHM versions in the enterprise edition are still the ZEN 7 versions). As soon as ZLM and ZHM will get integrated into ZCM, there will need to be something that will get these updates to the customer that have maintenance on the suite.

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  45. By:Jeremy Mlazovsky

    Concerning the comment by Tom about the lack of ZCM docs on Novell’s web site … I have had trouble finding it as well. I had it saved as a bookmark before, so I can get to it now.

    The URL provided by Ron works, but:

    1.) It still says Beta on it
    2.) If you go to Novell’s main docs page, it is not listed.
    http://www.novell.com/documentation/zenworks.html

    These are your options at that page:

    ZENworks 7
    ZENworks 7.2 Linux Management
    ZENworks 7.5 Asset Management
    ZENworks 7 Asset Management
    ZENworks Endpoint Security Management 3.2
    ZENworks Linux Management 6.6.2
    ZENworks Orchestrator 1.1

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  46. By:Ron van Herk

    I just had a look and the ZENworks documentation page you referred to, for me the link to the ZCM documentation exists.

    It looks like the page is cached somewhere. Maybe a CTRL-Reload will help

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  47. By:Jeremy Mlazovsky

    Both IE and Firefox had that problem.

    I cleared the cache for both of them and then it showed up.

    Thanks.

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  48. By:Patrick Farrell

    Yes there have for the most part always been more Linux developers, but not so many “professional” developers and code houses. I mean you had your hackers and people that wrote code for little projects, and then you had the big ones such as the people who do Sendmail and Apache and what not. It has not been until the last few years however that you have had big companies throw down into the trenches such as Novell/Suse/Redhat/IBM have. Redhat the company that shipped RHEL6 probably wasn’t the development house that the current Redhat team is. Linux is what everyone is having an interest in both in development and operation and that is where the growth is market is going.

    I think Novell painted themselves into a development corner with Netware that stated years ago and at this point it can’t really be undone in a way that would justify the expenditures to do so. There was supposed to be Novell Unixware the super NOS, and then there was talk of 64bit Netware which never happened. NSS is already running into limitations that I’m personally hitting with hardware arrays that have more capacity than I can put together in a volume. The concept of Netware as a Java server (the fastest Java servlet engine out there as I recall the claim) never took off either.

    I think 64 bits is going to be a big issue for a lot of people. If it’s not now, it will be soon, and I think it would have taken a significant undertaking and more importantly a significantly long development cycle to get Netware there. Ok so if they started 2 years ago, maybe they would have a 64 bit Netware in a year. But for who and then all your Netware app’s would probably need rewriting as well. We’re lucky backup vendors still support the platform. Sure you may run it in 2012, but will Veritas or Arcserv still have an agent? I think even diehard Netware enthusiasts will admit that the viability of the platform is rapidly diminishing regardless of whether or not Novell puts out Zen or GW on Netware for future versions because the third party support will not be there for things such as backup, or hardware drivers. Servers will need replacing and then what will you do? Netware is not something that has a potential to grow market share nor has it been since Windows 2003 server shipped, if not earlier. It’s been a maintain the base as long as you can thing while you get your next business plan in gear.

    Linux on the other hand is a growing market. It’s growing hand over fist. MS can shake it’s sabres all it wants but we KNOW there is infringing code in windows. They have already lost several suits over it. They can claim infringement exists all they want but they won’t say what infringes. SCO anyone? Novell and IBM also own a tremendous amount of patents. You are looking at 2 sides with a nuclear patent arsenal. All MS can do right now is Posture because they could potentially be looking at huge losses on their side as well. If they weren’t worried about that, they would have nipped the little Linux engine that could in the butt a long time ago and kept nipping it.

    “Even IF Novell pulls its’ head out and finally delivers on getting ONE place to manage all Novell components – ZEN, LDAP, BM, GW, etc – there are still hurdles to overcome that Novell refuses to even acknowledge.” Oh dear god don’t get me started… You’re 100% right there. By all rights GW 7 should have been under iManager with the iManager for everything not C1 anymore mantra that was being batted around.

    I don’t really have a problem with the way Novell is going. They are going to maintain Netware, not develop new for it. Most of their new stuff will run on Suse and Windows, so if you had a fear of litigation you could just go the Windows route. Netware as a core OS product isn’t going to generate a lot more income. It’s at the point where they will generate it from support/maintenance contracts on Suse and on the sale of products such as Zen/GW and others they sell. If you ask me they ought to just look at making Netware licenses free just to add some market share, but quite honestly I don’t think they would want the extra support burden on that OS platform.

    We could go back and forth about the details for another 10 pages but ultimately you have to look at Netware in it’s current state and look at the time and money you are spending to keep developing products for it in addition to Windows and Linux and the return on that investment. If you’re a company managing your bottom line, I think that’s probably a cut and dry case for Novell.

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  49. By:Patrick Farrell

    Martin,

    Is there a resource at Novell that I could go to in order to get some basic questions answered along the lines of When/Where to use ZCM vs Zen7? We own both due to having purchased open workgroup suite. There’s a lot of overlap between the two products and I’m looking into ZCM now and eventually deploying it. There are a lot of things that can be migrated across and some that can’t and I’m sure there are pro’s and con’s to doing so.

    For example we were in the process of looking at rolling out Asset Inventory in Zen 7. Is this something that would be better done with ZCM, or are they the same and it doesn’t matter… Questions like that.

    Does anything like this exist somewhere to look at now, and if not could you perhaps get the ball rolling on it?

    Thanks

    Patrick

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  50. By:Eric

    In regards to the statement “ZENworks 10 Configuration Management runs on SLES 10 and the forthcoming Open Enterprise Server 2″, doesn’t ZCM10 -require- a Windows (32-bit) server OS for BusinessObjects Enterprise (used for reporting)?

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  51. By:WoofaJB

    Here’s my understanding of what ZCM “is”, and what it is planned to be “in future” – hopefully it makes this discussion a bit clearer.

    This is based on going to BrainShare ’07 keynotes and sessions on “Pulsar” (=ZCM10 AFAIK)

    - ZCM “is” a new zen architecture. It can manage Windows desktops in some ways similar to ZDM7 (GPOs, application delivery, imaging etc.) while it also includes some other suite components merged (from items that are basically separate products in ZEN7) into one architecture (ZAM Asset Inventory and, as an optional component, ZPM)

    - ZCM “is” ok for a high-bandwidth, small to medium environment – either for testing or production deployment.

    From BS’07 I understood that it is NOT (yet) for very large (can’t remember the numbers, was it >10,000 or >25,000 PCs?) enterprise networks or networks with low-bandwidth site connections, except maybe to be used as testing / eval / pilot / planning so they can get used to the architecture.

    For the large and/or bandwidth-poor networks, the future version of ZCM (or whatever it ends up being called) AKA “Corona”, will add the scalability (adding Sattelite servers to the Primary Servers available in ZCM, etc.)

    From this I think that’s where Martin is saying that ZCM is not a replacement for ZDM7 or the ZEN7 suite, at least not right now – but that could change (I read this hopefully as when the Corona pieces are in place), at which time the whole licensing, maintenance and entitlement side of this would need to be reviewed anyway.

    Also from what I saw at BS’07, there are no ZLM or ZHM bits in ZCM yet, which is where ZCM does not replace ZEN7 and entitlement to ZCM Standard Edition does NOT mean you are missing out on some juicy uprades to these components.

    Martin – please feel free to correct anything I’ve misunderstood!

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